Curse

eternal pho · Mar 29, 2006, 12:48 AM // 00:48

but thats y random arena is so fun

Ken Dei · Mar 29, 2006, 03:48 AM // 03:48

Ok some things to address:
1.) CA died because people quit playing it, because of the rampant racism/bigotry/etc. Not for the most part, because of newbies.

2.) Farmers farm EVERYTHING, that's why IWAY was popular, it was a farm build for fame. So don't tell me Farmers don't PvP.

3.) Some of you people who don't see a problem with 12v12 selected teams have a rediculously POOR understanding of human nature. Either that, or you don't, you're just trying to expoit the inevitable flaws of that type of system, just like you exploit it in HA. If you give Elitists a foothold in this Arena they WILL, not they might, they WILL destroy any and all fun of this form of PvP, just like they did in HA.

4.) It is apparent to me, as it should be apparent to those who think 12v12 selection is a bad thing, that the main reason the people who support it do so, is because they can not stand the though of an even playing feild. A playing feild where inexperienced players can roll a slighty experienced team of four because they got paired with 8 people they didn't know, and didn't know how to work with. Don't say it can't happen, my 12 random players rolled a lot of 4+8 teams over the weekend. These people are coming to the painful realization that they can not think on their feet because they are to much into planning, so they might actually LOSE.

5.) All that said, I've had it with these people, I am so sick of accomidating their either ignorant, intentionally blind, or predatory views of how this game, and its players, work. There should NOT be a second place where you can select 12. They should have to fight in OUR arena for once. If they want to prove thier better, they do so with our rules. So once again A.Net, do NOT change Alliance Battles.

6.) Twicky, for the record, rank or not, you're still an Elitist. Not for where you play but how you think. You seem to believe that nothing bad comes from organization. If only that were the case, to much of a "good" thing is always bad.

How you "ignore" what happened to HA is embarassing, sure you admit it happened, but you for some reason believe it wouldn't happen again? To be fair, I don't think you're very down to earth about the plights of the casual gamer, you got lucky and found connections, those connections have afforded you a good guild and friends. This has caused you to get comfortable and think that what goes on in your gameplay is how it is for others, or how it could be if "they worked for it."

If that is in fact what has happened, let me say this, I've been through 24 guilds, I haven't found a good one, I had to make one. I play avidly, and bit more then your average 2-3 hours a day player, I've looked for months, so I "worked" to find a good guild, and still failed. Also, guild recruiting is going to tighten up in the established guilds, they aren't going to take anyone who can't get the faction or take the borders, this will limit the options of a casual player even more. I have a feeling, no matter the format, Alliance Battles will be the new popular GvG.

Finally, albeit I don't like Elitists, I'm not trying to insult you, just trying to let you walk in someone elses (alot of someone elses) shoes. I'm also directing my comments to other supporters of 12v12 selection.

LaserLight · Mar 29, 2006, 04:27 AM // 04:27

Quote:

Alliances are not cordinated at all. You can have up to 1000 players in 1 alliance. From those players that are doing 12v12 at one time will be entered into the match with you. Its still going to be random but you are not going to have a prime pick if there are a couple 100 people in your alliance. This does make a more narrow focus on who is invited into your games compared to being purely random.

Quote:

That's only true of the zerg alliances that are trying to hold cities. The competitive alliances are going to be significantly smaller. As far as alliance battles, if the teams are all organized, the number of people trying to enter at the same time from a competitive alliance is going to be exactly 12.

Sums it up right there. Even if your alliance had a thousand people in it, if they were setting up for a 12-man fight, I can tell you right exactly now how many people in that alliance would be in the district punching the ‘Enter Mission’ button.

And that would be twelve.

Which is exactly why I am now convinced that the 12-man battles will remain in the current format XP. Because, quite frankly, it’s harder than it sounds to get twelve guys of the same unit in an arena-type bit and hitting ‘Enter Mission’ all at the same time. Unless the 12-man fights were totally and completely organized, eliminating randomization altogether and turning the 12-man fights into something even more corrupt than hero’s Ascent (which is friggin’ hard to conceive of as possible), you can’t limit the random teams in the 12-man fights to simply those people in your Alliance. Mostly because the average Alliance, made up of average 15 or 20-man Guilds, will have only 45-60 players in them. And sitting there hoping to click “Enter Mission” at the same, random, time as eleven of your Alliance’s people would have “No party joined” flashing nine hundred ninety-nine times out of a thousand.

So. There will be no middle ground, no “random inside your Alliance.” Either the 12-man fights will be totally organized and will cater to only roughly three percent of the player base, or it will be of the format shown to us in the preview event. And considering that Anet’s already programmed and displayed to the public the version shown to us in the preview…

*Smiles.*

twicky_kid · Mar 29, 2006, 05:06 AM // 05:06

The new system is a faction game between 2 sides. Win or Lose both teams get faction to pump into their side. Everyone gets faction in the end.

There will be 100s of instances of the game at one time. Unlike HA its once every 10 MINUTES.

Its going to be a numbers game in the end for faction.

I think it is designed with 4 member teams to make it faster for pugs and casual players. I think the hardcore players are going to stay in gvg and get some new guild halls (which is another reason to get c2).

I didn't play any pve during weekend. Ran a few towns quick tried out henchies.

Its still going to be good fun for all. I like all aspects of the game in its own right. 12vs12 will be fun if it stays fast to join. I don't think it will be completely organized but small groups is all you need. Also need more info on rewards for the faction for each side.

LaserLight · Mar 29, 2006, 05:15 AM // 05:15

Two things.

A.) so long as it's a semi-random numbers game, I'm totally fine with it, man

B.) It's not Faction earned that determines the positioning of the line between Kurzicks and Luxons, it's sheer number of wins/losses. The Allied Faction you get is purely for your own use, either for crafting Jadeite/Amber armor or for boosting your Guild's/Alliance's total Faction so you can control a PvE town. Allied Faction has no impact at all on the front lines.

Wrath · Mar 29, 2006, 05:28 AM // 05:28

I really did like the random 12v12 battles. The ability to jump in and play in a large scale a battle was one of the best things about the weekend. I appreciate the quickness and no-fuss atmosphere of this format.

Though, they do need to punish leavers. Make it so they can't enter another battle until the one they left is over.

Isil`Zha · Mar 29, 2006, 06:16 AM // 06:16

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malice Black

12v12 should stay random...even me a PvE only person enjoyed the random chaos of this, i had fun owning with SS when everyone was bunched around 1 alter if this turns into organized PvP then fame farming will rule...

I too am a PvE only person really, and I really enjoy this 12 vs 12 thing, it's not the random part that bugs me, it's all the damned quitters! "Oh n0es! We're 15 points behind, I'm quitting this crap!" *quit*

It gets really irritating when 6 people quit 3 minutes into it cause the score is 45 to 21. Where I had groups where no one quit and made comebacks much greater than that... hell I wouldn't even call that a comeback. I found games much more fun where everyone stuck around and our team *lost* than I do if half the people quit the moment their team "falls behind."

Quitters are the ones that ruin it, otherwise I find it really fun, and if you talk to your team most of the time they'll listen and work together.

Best game ever was as close as it can be, we won, barely, 500 to 499. Yep, 500 to 499, the scores basically jumped up and down, back and forth the entire game and we managed to keep the lead at the very end, and everyone enjoyed that game immesely, cause no one quit.

Reiden Argrock · Mar 29, 2006, 06:33 AM // 06:33

for some reason I think that Alliance battles will be different once Factions is actually released... remember, they made individual guilds an alliance for the event... I think that once released, the actual alliances will be able to form up there group of 12 with no randoms.. I don't think anet would make a 12vs12 arena that was only random.. with the exception of groups of 4.. but there will probably still be the option for random teams... just my input

Laxie · Mar 29, 2006, 06:36 AM // 06:36

I think the closest it'll get is 6 + 6, right?

LaserLight · Mar 29, 2006, 07:17 AM // 07:17

Question. Why would they give us a preview of a format that would not exist in the game itself? Only possible reason is a failed beta test, but given the flood of support for the semi-random format, I can't see how Anet would consider the test a failure. Heck, if I were Anet right now and I'd planned, before the FPE, on making the final Alliance Battle fully controllable in any manner, I would actually be seriously reconsidering that move. We've even got the elite, ultra-competitive iQ player defending how awesome 12v12 fighting was with the semi-random format. If that isn't a kick in the pants saying that this is a true Everyman format, then I don't know what it's gonna take.

Personally, I figure anyone who is so laser-tight focused on PvP and GvG that he absolutely cannot enjoy 12v12 fights as a semi-random format is also so laser-tight focused on PvP that he could care less about PvE, and thus the 12v12 fights won't affect him or his in any way. He can safely ignore their existence after he caps skills - if he bothers to cap them and doesn't just Balth-Faction them up. Those types of guys already have two play formats to keep them happy, one of which is the premier, most honored and celebrated format in the game. They don't need to control an aspect of the game that's really more closely tied to straight, story-based PvE than anything else.

That's the turf of the casual gamer. And it would really be best for the health of the game if it stayed that way.

Chris Blackstar · Mar 29, 2006, 07:24 AM // 07:24

I am for random as well, but it should be total, no groups at all. The reason for this is that one, sabotagers could in fact group together and ruin the game for players who really want to have fun, and two it eliminates eletist who want to group together, then think they can control everyone.

I really agree and hope it will never turn out like HA, I only play their with my guild mates, otherwise it is one big joke, personally I feel fame and rank should be eliminated from the game altogether.

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Mar 29, 2006, 08:49 AM // 08:49

I think the solution to this argument is simple.

Keep the Random format.

But allow Guilds the option of doing organized 12vs12 Unranked.

With GvG being the main flow of PVP Guild life, this would just be a nice little side venture for guilds looking to practice and relax at the same time. Give everyone what they want, rather than limit it to one format. Guilds will still do the Random 12vs12 for fun, but also have the option of doing it in a different area with other guilds. Just provide different maps for Guild Battles.

Just make sure the Guild 12 vs 12 has to be against other guilds. Also the battles shouldnt give Kurzick or Luxon faction since its more PVP related. It should just give Balthazar Faction like any other PVP event.

luilui · Mar 29, 2006, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I think you misunderstand the current gaming environment. HA is not the highest level of competition. HA is a slum. It's pretty widely recognized as a sea of gimmick builds in a format that bluntly doesn't matter.

That's what you're missing. The serious players don't care, we'd rather be GvGing against other competitive guilds if we wanted a good, hard match. If both options were presented, organized 12v12 would be a wasteland compared to the sheer number of games being played in the semi-random environment.

Peace,
-CxE

I didnt mean HA is the highest level tho, i meant hoh (the actual hall of heros). I agree in the earlier map like UW there are some crappy teams, but when u get to the hall there are normally some very good teams.

the new 12v12 battle offer different gameplay and higher level of tactics can be applied, if the teaming is random then u'll always get some healing breeze/orison warrior in ur team. And that's like seeing a team of wammo in hall everyday, which is ................

some serious players might prefer GvG, but i dont see why they wouldnt want to do some organised 12v12 tho, not have to be for the faction or guild ranking, just becoz it's different gameplay. And I'm not sure how much those top rank guild ppl will enjoy the 12v12 if everytime they go in they have to team up with some W/Mo, iwayers.... etc. If it stays as the way it is now that's like saying to those serious players "go back to ur gvg, 12v12 is not for u".

Ensign · Mar 29, 2006, 11:35 AM // 11:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

I didnt mean HA is the highest level tho, i meant hoh (the actual hall of heros).

I meant the Hall of Heroes specifically when I was talking about how bad HA was. Heroes' Ascent is a slum, and the Hall of Heroes is a festering cesspool in the center of it all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

And I'm not sure how much those top rank guild ppl will enjoy the 12v12 if everytime they go in they have to team up with some W/Mo, iwayers.... etc.

We think it's a blast.

It's certainly better than having to dismantle gimmick after gimmick after gimmick, with a side order of complete garbage. Nubstomping isn't fun for anyone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

If it stays as the way it is now that's like saying to those serious players "go back to ur gvg, 12v12 is not for u".

That could not be further from the truth.

With the random component, 12v12 is not a format that you can care about. That makes it wide open, and something that you can just sit down and play if you want to get your PvP on without wanting to organize a full team.

If it was completely arranged then it could no longer be played casually. The format would be full of FOTMs and "alliance rats" that play well enough that you have to care if you want to beat them. In other words, just another flavor of your favorite slum.

I'll be blunt about my personal stake in this. When I'm not GvGing, I log out of game because there is no PvP worth playing in this game if you don't have a full, organized squad available. 12v12 in its current incarnation is an absolute blast with only a couple teammates that you know, and it's something that I know that I'd play a lot of whenever the guild wasn't on to play with.

This game is far too serious already. Sometimes I want to just log in and play without having to deal with an hour of preparation. Do not take the first format that downright excels at that away from me.

Peace,
-CxE

...no, I don't know why I'm bothering to type out these replies to someone who can't bother to complete a three letter word.

luilui · Mar 29, 2006, 01:47 PM // 13:47

Sounds to me a 12v12 CA with the addition of going in with some friends is what u want. If u want to do some pvp and kill some time, we already have CA/TA for that purpose.

All i'm saying is if Anet dont allow teams to be more organised then what's the point of designing a set of rather complex rule and some tactical maps? That's like driving a top racing car in an area of 50km/h speed limit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

We think it's a blast.

I dont know what guild u r in or how many players u know, but u seem to think u represent the majority of serious players. Rather u actually do or not, i guess there is no point for further discussion.

JoDiamonds · Mar 29, 2006, 04:02 PM // 16:02

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

12v12 has something for everyone, and it's a blast to play. It won't replace GvG as a competitive format, but does it have to? I would not be surprised if 12v12 becomes the most popular format in the long haul. It's just that good.

It's certainly an excellent format. Given that it's been proven to be wildly popular in other games (largely Battlefield, but there are other clones of the idea), I would not be at all surprised if it becomes the most popular game format once Factions is out. In fact, I'd put money on it. =)

MSecorsky · Mar 29, 2006, 04:13 PM // 16:13

If they don't take away the feature where you can <ENTER> without even being in a full four person party, it will forever be random and highly enjoyable. That being said, there needs to be some kind of commitment to a faction; something that says "I am Kurzick!" or "I am Luxon", and based on that you can fight only for your side. It should be fairly difficult to change sides... at least not a matter of simple selling enough faction for rare crafting items.

Studio Ghibli · Mar 29, 2006, 04:28 PM // 16:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

This game is far too serious already. Sometimes I want to just log in and play without having to deal with an hour of preparation. Do not take the first format that downright excels at that away from me.

Peace,
-CxE

...no, I don't know why I'm bothering to type out these replies to someone who can't bother to complete a three letter word.

Ensign,

Trust me, for the people who want 12v12 to remain in its current incarnation, you're a boon. I don't want to sound as if you're some high-profile celebrity campaigning for our right to enjoy the semi-random 12v12 delight--but..

You are.

If we were arguing about the legality of guns, you'd be my Charleton Heston.

JoDiamonds · Mar 29, 2006, 04:29 PM // 16:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by twicky_kid

If this is really suppose to competative pvp arena it should not be random.

It's probably not supposed to be a fully competitive PvP. Multiple competitive PvP game format exist and are well supported by ANet. This is a more casual PvP format, which is obviously very popular.

Quote:

Your success depends on complete strangers that most likely do not understand positioning.

Yup.

Quote:

I understand its random to make sure the top teams do not dominate it completely but that's really not needed. The top teams dominate gvg but does that stop people from gvging? No it doesn't.

Yes. Some people don't GvG because it's too hard. However, GvG also has the match-making service that puts you against similarly skilled teams. Any suggestion that the 12v12 should be more formal like GvG would absolutely require such a service.

Quote:

The random team matching needs to be removed. Personally I will not be doing this at all if stays random.

Then this is probably not for you. Again, there are multiple formats for highly competitive skill-based PvP.

It's not a matter of trying to keep out highly competitive players, per se; rather, the *goal* is to support different kinds of players. There aren't any highly fun but relatively casual PvP formats. This would be one of them (and evidence shows it would be extremely popular).

There is, of course, some possibility of supporting multiple kinds of 12v12, but there are a limited number of game formats that can be supported by ANet without splintering the community. Given the dead-horse mentioned already existing formats for highly competitive gameplay, it hardly seems like there needs to be another one (while the casual PvP crowd is left largely unsupported).

Mordakai · Mar 29, 2006, 04:39 PM // 16:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by luilui

I dont know what guild u r in or how many players u know, but u seem to think u represent the majority of serious players. Rather u actually do or not, i guess there is no point for further discussion.

luilui - I hope you are kidding. Take a look at Ensign's guild. They're the American guild that made it the furthest in the Tapai World Tournament.

So, yeah, I think he knows what he's talking about!

I also think its cool, where he could be an elitist snob, he's actually encouraging casual PvP play, something I think is currently lacking, unless you count the pointless fun of seeing how far you can take your gimmick build through RA...